Tuesday, January 5, 2010

THE PLASTIC BAG ISSUE - AMERICAN LIBERALISM VS. TRUE SOCIALISM

To the American liberal this is an easy question - ban the bags - you know, divorce American style. A true socialist sees the debate in the context of government imposed control over the person which in effect is a loss of liberty. Ah no, this is not conservatism or libertarianism. The true socialists adds another component to the question to which the true conservative or libertarian would object.

Karl Marx understood the revolution could not be imposed through a bureaucratic process, it had to come from the people. Rarely discussed is the social component. The people have to take the lead in understanding the concept for the social good - it cannot be imposed. This debate was at the heart of the differences between the Leninist/Stalinist factions and Trotsky. Trotsky lost the debate and was eventually exiled to live out his life in Mexico City. Side note - I was asked to leave his house when I sat in the chair where he was killed - it was worth the humiliation. I got to read the notes on his desk as they existed on that day.

Back to plastic bags - In my home recycling is a natural thing. Everyone who visits my home knows exactly what to do with any trash they may have. Without grass clippings it takes more than a month for me to fill my trash can. No one has to tell me why I should recycle - it is just an automatic thing. It is a consequence of understanding the mental state of social obligation to the community as a whole. Once the majority of the people reach this state then the economy begins to move into a socialist model. Key to understanding this is the idea that the social component must occur before the movement in the economy. Lenin and Stalin had no patience for this and instead actually dismantled the social component which already was in operation in the villages, and imposed a bureaucratic model. It failed - it was not socialism.

American Liberalism is not Leninism because it does not seek to establish absolute control by the state. American Liberalism uses regulation to regulate behavior which it deems bad for the community, while perpetuating the capitalist swindle. Without all of the regulations in our society the American people would have long ago dismantled capitalism in the US. We are a funny people. We say we hate it, but then complain when the government fails to regulate the meat industry or lead in our products, or make our airports safe..

In the end the true socialists sees the banning of plastic bags as a way for the state to impose morality on the people. In the end it will fail because it perpetuates the idea that morality must come from the state. Oh please - you so called conservatives - you have nothing to say on ths issue. Until you stop obsessing over genitalia and people’s private lives, you are as guilty as the American liberal. The true socialist understands these type moral questions must be resolved by the individual in their mind - it cannot be imposed by state imposed regulations.

Finally this is not Libertarianism. The end result of this social revolution incidental to socialism it to move away from capitalism into a true state of socialism. I hardly believe the libertarian would support such a move. In the context of capitalism and capitalism only libertarianism is a complete failure. If libertarians truly had their way the American people would abandon capitalism faster than the libertarians knew what hit them.

So there you have - I turned the debate over plastic bags into a lesson on the differences between different socio-political systems.

14 comments:

Anonymous said...

Two how questions?
"Without all of the regulations in our society the American people would have long ago dismantled capitalism in the US." HOW?

"In the context of capitalism and capitalism only libertarianism is a complete failure." HOW?

Fred D said...

At the moment the principles of the Libertarians are reflected in the Party Platform. The view as expressed locally is found on our Web site http://www.cameroncountylp.org/
Capitalism and free trade are among the foundations as is a distaste for war. The party was formed in the 1970's with those ideals as well as a more strict interpretation of the Constitutional than currently prevails.
Individual freedom and responsibility generally influence our direction most.
There is no real all consuming - pure ideal except freedom that is uniform among Libertarians so I cannot figure where you base your premise as to what Libertarian candidates would do. Perhaps ask Ed Mishou- the Libertarian running against Solomon Ortiz. He even has some Democrat advisors as well as Tea Party types. All are comfortable with Libertarian ideals.

Anonymous said...

Answer the above questions

BobbyWC said...

Fred this allows me to answer the How questions at the same time.

As you note libertarians are for capitalism. they are also against too much regulation.

The people love to complain about regulations while also complaining about how corporations screw them.

Would the Teabaggers be against the use of Indians for customer service. this is one of my favorites. Would the Teabaggers stand up against a law which bans the use of Indians or any other group outside the US managing customer service calls?

Without regulation of our food industry we saw what happened. Without regulations we would still have lead in our paint and gas.

the people do not rebel because while they hate regulations because they fail to realize how it benefits them, corporate America remains tamed.

The American people are NIBI - everyone wants cheaper energy, but not in their back yard. There is a reason libertariansim never caught on - a super majority of the American people understand that regulations are needed to protect us from corporate America.

Are the Teabaggers against the new credit card regulations or are they in favor of 50% interests rates and endless hidden fees. Let's see how long their movement lasts they day they come out against the regulation of credit card fees and interest rates.


I hate to agree with David Brooks on this one, but the opinions of the Teabaggers on the economy, and regulations is about as valuable as the opinion of 5 year old playing doctor is to a brain surgeon.

It is like this, they are not experts on anything, but play experts on everything.

Bobby WC
Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

You answered neither question specifically. Typical myopic drivel.

BobbyWC said...

No, you did not like the answer so you cry. Without regulations the American people will cry me a river against corporate American aka capitalism. Through regulations liberal America keeps the people at bay against corporate America.

See what happens when you take away all of the regulations. the anti-regulation American people are all over the airlines for their abuse of the people and are demanding governmental action.

the American people are so poorly educated they blame the government for the lack of H1N1 timely distribution when the fact is teh government had nothing to do with how fast the H1N1 shot was manufactured.

The American people are so pathetically anti-regulation they blame the government for the failures in the private sector and then demand more government intervention.

Without American liberalism in the 30's capitalism would have failed in the US. yes we all know how much libertarians and teabaggers are demanding more rat hairs in their meat.

Bobby WC

BobbyWC said...

No, you did not like the answer so you cry. Without regulations the American people will cry me a river against corporate American aka capitalism. Through regulations liberal America keeps the people at bay against corporate America.

See what happens when you take away all of the regulations. the anti-regulation American people are all over the airlines for their abuse of the people and are demanding governmental action.

the American people are so poorly educated they blame the government for the lack of H1N1 timely distribution when the fact is teh government had nothing to do with how fast the H1N1 shot was manufactured.

The American people are so pathetically anti-regulation they blame the government for the failures in the private sector and then demand more government intervention.

Without American liberalism in the 30's capitalism would have failed in the US. yes we all know how much libertarians and teabaggers are demanding more rat hairs in their meat.

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

Hey, if we go back to paper bags we'll have to cut more trees. Oh my, the tree-huggers ain't gonna want that. Uncle Sam won't allow hemp. What to do...

J. Aplceed

BobbyWC said...

I have been calling for hemp development in south Texas for over 12 years. Rene Oliviera attacked me some 12 years ago for my position on the issue.

The reusage bags currently being sold at Waqlmart are made from 100%recycled plastic bags.

It is so much easier to ban the bags than to ticket the pigs on the beach who through the garbage on the beach. This is yet another example of government at its worse.

We need meaningful enforcement of the litter laws.

I say if you litter on they beach you should be banned from all public beaches for 6 months.

Bobby WC

Bobby WC

PG said...

American Liberalism is not Leninism because it does not seek to establish absolute control by the state. American Liberalism uses regulation to regulate behavior which it deems bad for the community...

ROTMFFLMAO - There really is nothing more to say after that statement. I have nothing left in the tank. LOL...LOL..lol...

I have been calling for hemp development in south Texas for over 12 years.

OMG! Stop it. You are killing me. Seriously, my sides are starting to hurt.

Anonymous said...

"It is like this, they are not experts on anything, but play experts on everything."

Bobby WC

A quintessential example of the proverbial pot calling the kettle black!

Anonymous said...

regulations do make us safer. but an informed consumer base could freely choose paint without lead in it also over the lead paint company...and the lead paint company might go out of business if it fails to change its ways.

BobbyWC said...

On the paint issue in a perfect world you are correct, but also it will be the poor and uneducated who will buy the paint with the lead.

correction - I have been advocating for hemp for 9 1/2 years

here ids a letter from 2006 as just one example


http://www.brownsvilleherald.c

om/news/iowa-72913-south-texas.html

Fred D said...

Withe regard to Bobby's comments - as far as I know there is no pure approach as to Indians doing call tech support nor is there a definition as to how much regulation is necessary - they are debated regularly. As it happens I just finished commenting on the proposed National 2010 platform and find myself opposed to the way many issues were framed.
Thanks for the questions - I will try to deal with them in an upcoming column.