Friday, August 7, 2009

INTELLECT DIES AND MOB RULE TAKES OVER

Right now if you are watching the news, the right-wing ideologues are terrorizing the country into submission as to their opposition to healthcare. This is a difficult subject for me because I do not want a system wherein we are silencing people who are engaged in legitimate speech. This is clearly a political issue and 100% protected as a fundamental right. But the law has always provided that once your speech has as its purpose the disruption of the public peace, the law can step in and take control.

The rationale behind protecting speech was to insure a vibrant exchange of ideas. This is why we do not protect defamation. Defamation is the act of children with no intellect or adults who have lived their lives as bullies or who are simply so poorly educated they must use name calling when they find themselves lacking in critical thinking skills.

If we give in to this type bullying, then the mob will rule this country. What we do not need at this time is the radical-left responding with similar tactics. I am concerned this has begun. It boggles my mind that someone who listens to Glenn Beck as a credible source even has the skills to turn on the radio. His paranoia seems to get worse by the day. But this does not means I will ever support a boycott against his advertisers. An organized boycott against Beck’s advertisers is mob rule with the intent of shutting down diverse ideas. Anyone who fears Beck’s ideas cannot have much confidence in their own.

The following is a story which outlines the boycott.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-rucker/glenn-becks-advertisers-a_b_253281.html

I have not predicted the outcome of the Gonzales hearings because I do not know the allegations, the evidence, or the law on the issue. I have not taken the time to review what BISD must prove in order to prevail. In order to engage in a proper critical analysis of the hearings, I would need to know each of the above factors. I do not - so I will not make a prediction.

It is this need for people to predict everything under the sun based solely on their own sense of self aggrandizement that is sinking this country fast. It would be sad if the internet proves the final straw which breaks this country. The internet should be a place of information not endless false claims and bogus spin.

This war which is becoming all too apparent between the extreme right and extreme left is not going to end well. I suspect we will have less leeway in our speech. When you begin to kill the art of discourse through mob protests or boycotts, you are in fact heading down the road of self-destruction.

Our best weapon against this path of self-destruction is to continue to plead with people to only consider arguments based on reason. Note I did not say well reasoned - that is too subjective of a concept to form a basis for what you should and should not consider. You fail yourself when you refuse to consider a diversity of ideas. The key is to ask yourself - is the speaker simply making off the cuff predictions based on a 50/50 chance of being right, or are they laying out reasonably verifiable facts, law, medical science, any variable you can imagine which will provide you confidence their opinion is something more than an off the cuff politically motivated conclusion.

While the following may sound funny, it is not - it speaks to the growing divide in this country which is destroying our freedoms and democracy. I received this in this morning’s e-mail.

" Getting A Parking TicketThe other day I went downtown to run a few errands. I went into the local coffee shop for a snack. I was only there for about 5 minutes, and when I came out, there was this cop writing out a parking ticket. I said to him, 'Come on, man, how about giving a retired person a break? He ignored me and continued writing the ticket.His insensitivity annoyed me, so I called him a 'Nazi.' He glared at me and then wrote out another ticket for having worn tires. So I proceeded to call him a 'doughnut eating Gestapo.' He finished the second ticket and put it on the windshield with the first. Then he wrote a third ticket when I called him a moron in blue.

This went on for about 20 minutes. The more I talked back to him the more tickets he wrote. Personally, I didn't really care. I came downtown on the bus, and the car that he was putting the tickets on had one of those bumper stickers that said, 'Obama in '08.' I try to have a little fun each day now that I'm retired. The doctor tells me that it's important to my health. "

The author of the above is so poorly educated they fail to understand they are demeaning law enforcement. They think what they are doing to Obama supporters is funny. But they are doing it at the expense of law and order - something so called conservatives claims they support.

49 comments:

Anonymous said...

Can we go ahead an label this another 'teaching moment'?

"But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

President Barack Obama, encouraging a vibrant exchange of ideas and rational, intellectual dialoge on health care - McLean, Virginia August 6, 2009

BobbyWC said...

I put a lot of Obama's failure on this issue on his inability to speak without a prepared speech.

On this issue Obama is a complete failure - no tthe issue of healthcare, but as an effective communicator -

Obama fails to understand people respond to effective sound-bites. I do not understand why the DNC is not running ads with real people who have had paper pushers at the insurance companies reject their claims or authorization for treatment. These stories are a dime a dozen -

Obama cannot seem to get over himself and this will be his downfall.

BObby WC

Anonymous said...

But how can we ignore the fact that the world's most famous community organizer is whining about community organizing?

Anonymous said...

"But the law has always provided that once your speech has as its purpose the disruption of the public peace, the law can step in and take control."

Before you continue, you should watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvR59BAQ9t4

People wanted to talk and participate but were shut down. Are you proud of this government approved shut down of speech?

BobbyWC said...

I could barely make out the tape - but I did hear the part of "they do not want to talk" you know what - no one can force me to talk to them - no one can forme me to listen to them - also the police have the right to keep the peace when they perceive a problem - yes conservatives bad mouthing the police for doing their job - how classic.

now on the whining comment - good - great irony - I love this kind of creativity and observation.

for the record - Obama's whining is doing more to hurt his position than anything else

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

What the Democratic Leadership,(not to mention self-proclaimed Liberals like you) are doing is beyond hypocritical, it's scandalous. Not even a year ago we were all told that dissent is the 'highest' form of patriotism, and now, people are questioning ObamaCare and the left are calling us "political terrorists"?

Are you kidding me? My jaw is still on floor after reading your op-ed and Puff.

BobbyWC said...

First of all you cannot read or you are delutional. I have since day one denounced liberalism - self-proclaimed means I am claiming myself a liberal - I am a socialist - not that a moron with no education could ever understand.

I went out of my way as denouncing those going after Glen Beck - yes the true sign of a self-proclaimed liberal.

I never said (stop listening to the voices in your head) that everyone opposed to Obama's healthcare reform are terrorists (those voices in your head can be dangeous)

IN fact several weeks ago I did an entire discussion on how Obama's reform could lead to only govenment sponsored health insurance - I was forced to bring up the discussion because people like you are incapable of rational intelligent thought.

To repeat the argument - the insurance companies are claiming they cannot effectively compete with government plans so over time they will go out of business thereby only leaving the government plan.

By your incredibly ignorant stupid stanards I guess I am a terrorist for pointing out the possible flaw in Obama's plan.

I have never said speech which disrupts is protected speech - where that line is which defines disrupts I do not know - but when either side of the discussion makes it impossible for our elected officials to inform the electorate as to what is or is not in the bill it is fair to say they are disrupting.

I do not fear this little con job by your side - I have enough faith in the American people to see through it and punish the Republicans for it - just keep it coming.

As you have proven with your comment - you cannot argue it on substance so you reduce it idiocies. Twice now I have had to bring forward the argument as to how Obama's plan could lead to government only sponsored insurance - this is something you should have done.

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

(On this issue Obama is a complete failure - no tthe issue of healthcare, but as an effective communicator)

But isn't this why he was elected? If he is a failure on this, isn't he ultimately a failed president? He certainly didn't have any other creds to be president much less win. That's why Hillary got my vote. That is my only saving grace, but it won't excuse my vote for Obama last November.

BobbyWC said...

Did Obama ever speak on the campaign trail without a prepared speach? People voted for him for many reasons - white liberal guilt; he wasn't Hillary; anti-Clinton dynasty; hatred for Bush - I am hard press to believe many people voted for Obama because they new his policies

He is just a slightly more intelligent Bush - people put too much into the presidency -

If the economy turns around the WH is only a small part - the problem is the WH will get all of the credit or all of the blame

It takes reform at the local level - state taxing policies - creativity of the small business person - effective leadership at the corporate level - international variables - I am not sure our economy would have been hit as hard as it was had the price of oil not gone to $147 -

If the economy recovers Obama will be declared a hero - in spite of himself -

But for the record these rightwing mobs and Senator Cornyn know that if Obama fights back they loose - which is why they are trying to make it look like he is silencing speech.

I might remind the Republicans when these same mob righwing terrorists did this on immigration reform it did not seem to translate into more votes for Republicans - the election results tells us it hurt the Republicans.

So I say to these mobs - mob away every day - the American people are not stupid and will retaliate against the Republicans

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

"The right of freely examining public characters and measures, and of free communication among the people thereon… has ever been justly deemed the only effectual guardian of every other right."- James Madison (1798)

But you're calling informed protesters, a mob. And you pretend to be a student and protector of the constitution.

Anonymous said...

From your source link, "Democracy requires free and open discussion, not shouting down an opponent and preventing discussion by chanting mindless slogans. Democracy requires respect, not hanging of effigies and pounding on windows to disrupt democratic town hall meetings."

Which is why the left hung Sarah Palin in effigy and Code Pink/MoveOn protesters regularly shouted down opponents, preventing discussion.

By the way, democracy involves the governed determining who governs them and what governs them — not whether or not you think they have the necessary facts. Opinion doesn't require your approval.

BobbyWC said...

So you say they are informed - no proof - just a statement from an anonymous source - the fact you think anyone would consider your approach credible is what scares me - informed people are not reduced to disrupting proceedings - and again I am the one standing up for Glen Beck

-

I never said anyone needs my approval - this is your problem - you think that way - there is no thought process in that way of thinking - it is anti-freedom -

people need to have opinions based on facts - it is my opinion that people should dismiss anyone - from either side who simply spout opinion without facts - yes a radical communist idea -

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

Who is behind the mob?

Anonymous said...

I remember then-Senator Hillary Clinton screeching, "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJxmpTMGhU0

Well, I'm sick and tired too. The question is, why aren't you?

Anonymous said...

It's idiots like you that have it all upside down. The problem is, the citizenry is well-informed and want to be even more informed. They've read the bill. They know it's a way to get a single-payer system. They know they are being lied to and manipulated.

It's the Congress that can't keep up with the facts buried in this bill. Congressman John Conyers (D-MI) and Paul Hodes (D-NH) are just a few of many congressman who don't read the bill. Congressman Henry Waxman putting a 300 page amendment at 3 in the morning for another bill that no one read. Congressman John Dingell (D-MI) couldn't answer a question at a townhall as to whether health care will come out of a person's paycheck. We want to be more informed that we are being allowed. It's them who don't want to talk as you admitted earlier.

Instead, they shout us down with the state run media and prevent discussion with their union thugs. As what happened in Dallas, the AARP people just leave the room to avoid questions from their members.

BobbyWC said...

You are either too angry to comprehend what you are reading or you lie because you have nothing of substance to say.

"The question is, why aren't you?" I go after Obama all of the time. I go after the Democrats all of the time. I am denouncing those going after Beck - dude get on Abilify it will silence those voices.

God you are as good as god - you are omnicient - you know everyone who is protesting has read the non-existed bill - there is no Bill - the Senate and House are not even on the same planet on key issues.

And yes I have looked for things in the drafts - and you know what the woman claiming the bill requires she be on birth control while waiting for permission to have artificial insemination - lied - the woman today claiming the bill will make it illegal to switch insurance companies - lied -
first they claim the Bill mandates government control then they claim the bill makes it illegal to change insurance companies - which is it?

dude - Abilify - it stops the voices


can you tell my readers what makes you so special that you know for a fact all of these people have read the non-existent Bill - other than the voices in your head.

It is these stupid comments I love posting through because the more you speak the more you convince mentally stable people just how dangerous and ignorant your side has become.

I am reserving judgment until there is a Bill. And as I have said over and over and over again -if the final bill denies people choice then I will oppose it.

Now as to John Cornyn and KBH who oppose government healthcare - what did we as veterans do to these two scum of the earth politicos to deserve them supporting another failed VA hospital in the LRGV -

We defended their pathetic asses while they failed to serve. How about all you lemming rightwingers demand that Cornyn and KBH defend disabled veterans by giving us the option of private insurance healthcare paid for by the government. Why would any pro veteran politico impose on veterans a healthcare system they claim has failed.

the fact of the matter is the Harlingen Clinic is the best healthcare you will receive anywhere in the US - it is the top of the line - which explains why Cornyn and KBH want to kill it with a teaching hospital.

Oh yea - fuck alll veterans they are all whiners.

get your facts together and stop repeating stupid comments being provided to you by Hannity and Beck - yes we know I'm just difficult - because everyone knows anony has interviewed everyone with an opinion who supports anony - meaning these mob protesters - god I wish I had the time to travel all around the country and interview these people.

Keep the stupid comments coming because it makes my job all that much easier.

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

This from MOVEON.org:

"We've got a plan to fight back against these radical right-wingers. We've hired skilled grassroots organizers who are working with thousands of local volunteers to show Congress that ordinary Americans continue to support President Obama's agenda for change. And we're building new online tools to track events across the country and make sure MoveOn members turn out at each one.

But we need to scale up our efforts quickly to make sure this plan works. To really swing into action during this month's congressional recess, we need to raise at least $250,000 immediately. Can you chip in $20 to support our work?"

Rodney King, who are the astroturfers now? They want to shut down legitimate speech and you are okay with it.

Anonymous said...

Defending Glenn Beck?

Reminder: "It boggles my mind that someone who listens to Glenn Beck as a credible source even has the skills to turn on the radio"

Protect the messenger, attack the messengee. Is that your game?

BobbyWC said...

Dude, I am begging you get on Abilify to stop the voices - how is anyone raising money to respond trying to silence voices? How?

what you are saying is - "look they want to respond - communist conspiracy - danger Will Robinson danger." Part of Free speach is the right to speak - what are you afraid of?

here is an idea - I guarantee you if you do this you will be named the national hero of the movement and they will carve your face on Mount Fuck ME.

You have read this non-existent Bill - we believe you - set up a blog and cut and past every provision which takes away choice and creates a governmment pay system - we know it is there because you say so .

After each cut and past post the link to the page in the non-existent bill where the language is found.

You will have done it - you will have provided the slam dunk proof and be the hero of all humanity. You will be on every news program in the world.

The fact no one has done this is all the proof I need the protests are being lead by people with no knowledge of reality.

What better proof would there be than such a blog. Everyone would be able to read it for themselves - no spin - no one telling them what it says - all in black and white

For teh record, once there is a final bill, I will be teh first to post verbatim any language which takes away private choice - and I will be the first to demand Congress say no. My post will provide a link to the direct language because I will trust my readers to be able to read it and form their own opinion as opposed to being hand fed by Hannity

Readers, sorry for being so irate today - 1200 mg gabapentin 3x a day is ruff. I need to pull back - the nightmares are quite intense

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

"He ignored me and continued writing the ticket.His insensitivity annoyed me, so I called him a 'Nazi.'"

You know what was also probably an oversight: you missing the irony of calling people opposing incremental socialism "Nazis," a.k.a. "National SOCIALISTS." Oversight or indication of your historical ignorance. Either way, doesn’t say much good about you.

Anonymous said...

When you fight the good fight your whole life and it gets you nowhere, sometimes you got to wonder what's the point.

Anonymous said...

Rasmussen has a poll out saying 49% say town hall protesters are grassroots while 37% say Astroturf.

"The partisan divide is even wider when the motivations of the protesters are at issue. Seventy percent (70%) of Republicans and 58% of unaffiliated voters say the protesters reflect the concerns of their neighbors. Sixty-one percent (61%) of Democrats say the protests are phony. Sixty-three percent (63%) of liberals say the protests are motivated by special interests, while 69% of conservatives say they're driven by local concerns."

Sounds like the protesters want to be heard in a respectable manner, but the left won't let them. The protesters you call a mob are not being paid or have paid operatives telling them what to do.

The left and you are demonizing them with names like "mob" and spreading falsehoods about using swastikas. Looks to me like you are one of the insensitive ones calling them "mob" in reference to their "mob rule" tactics. Don't pretend to be fair and middle of the road when you aren't. How intellectual is it to lie?

Anonymous said...

So what do you think? Is this true?

Anonymous said...

I never said (stop listening to the voices in your head) that everyone opposed to Obama's healthcare reform are terrorists (those voices in your head can be dangeous)

NO ONE SAID YOU DID. BUT THE WASHINGTON POST DID.

To repeat the argument - the insurance companies are claiming they cannot effectively compete with government plans so over time they will go out of business thereby only leaving the government plan.

THEY CAN'T COMPETE. INSURANCE COMPANIES AND GROUPS HAVE A LIMITED SUPPLY OF MONEY. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN JUST PRINT IT. DON'T MIND THE INFLATION. DON'T MIND YOU'RE PUTTING PEOPLE OUT OF WORK AT THOSE COMPANIES. THE INSURANCE COMPANIES AND YOUR INSURANCE GROUP CAN'T COMPETE AGAINST THAT SO THEY WILL FOLD. THERE WON'T BE ANY CHOICES LEFT BUT THE BIG BROTHA.

I do not fear this little con job by your side

YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT OUR SIDE AS IF THERE ARE ONLY TWO SIDES. (AND THERE ARE.) WE ARE CONSERVATES AGAINST LIBERALS. BUT YOU DENOUNCE LIBERALS SAYING YOU ARE A SOCIALISTS AS IF THEY ARE DIFFERENT LIBERALS AND AS THOUGH SOCIALISTS ARE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD AND ABOVE THE FREY. WHICH IT ISN'T. SO WHICH IS IT? WHAT SIDE ARE YOU? YOU ARE EITHER A CONSERVATIVE OR A LIBERAL. PICK A SIDE AND STICK WITH IT.

I never said anyone needs my approval

YES YOU DID. REMEMBER "FACTS MATTER" OR "people need to have opinions based on facts - it is my opinion that people should dismiss anyone - from either side who simply spout opinion without facts"? YOUR TANTAMOUNT APPROVAL IS THAT THE FACTS FIT YOUR WARP WORLD VIEW. IF THEY DON'T YOU, YOU PISS ON THEM SAYING THEIR ARE JUST OPINION BUT YOUR OPINION IS BASED ON FACT. DON'T FORGET THE HEALTH CARE PLAN MUST MEET YOUR APPROVAL.

how is anyone raising money to respond trying to silence voices?

I THINK THE QUOTE SPEAKS FOR ITSELF, BUT MAYBE YOUR READING COMPREHENSION SKILLS AREN'T WHAT THEY USED TO BE ON ACCOUNT OF YOUR AGE. MOVEON.ORG AND PROBABLY OTHERS ARE HIRING "SKILLED GRASSROOTS ORGANIZERS." I GUESS THAT MEANS THE ONES WITH THE PURPLE SHIRTS BEATING UP "MOB" PROTESTORS FOR THE SAKE OF LYNCHING THEM. THEY MUST BE SKILLED AND SILENCING PEOPLE TO A PULP. ITS THE NINETEENTH CENTURY ALL OVER AGAIN.

We defended their pathetic asses while they failed to serve.

SO DID YOU SERVE TO BE ABLE TO BITCH IN YOUR OLD AGE OR DID YOU SERVE FOR THE HEALTH BENEFITS? MAYBE THE MSM HASN'T MADE IT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU. IF OBAMA AND THE LEFT HAVE THEIR WAY, THE OLDER YOU GET THE LESS CHANCE THERE IS YOU GET HEALTH CARE. JUST LOOK AT THE LIBERAL STATE OF OREGON SENDING CITIZENS LETTERS TELLING THEM TO GET END OF LIFE COUNSELING SO YOU CAN JUST DIE. THE SICKER AND OLDER YOU ARE MEANS THE LESS IMPORTANT YOU ARE TO THE GOVERNMENT. AND YOU WANT US TO PLACE OUR TRUST THEM? YOU'RE ALREADY ONE FOOT IN THE GRAVE IF OBAMACARE PASSES.

BobbyWC said...

caps are an indication of yelling - can't get out of the hannity directed mode for one second.

how about stop telling what is in the non-existent plan and just copy and paste what is in the plan so we can read it ourselves. Nope never going to happen.

You cannot point to one thing in the plan with a copy and paste which supports any of the lies and fear tactics - moveon is going to push this reality and when the radical right fails to post the provisions on the internet, because they cannot, the gig will be up and you will call it a communist conspiracy

Bobby WC

BobbyWC said...

Exactly how would the people responding to a poll know the motivation of the people? this is one of those dumb ass polls idiots read and quote.

Now, I personally believe a large number of people are reacting to fear tactics by the radical right and going to these meetings and getting caught up in the anger - independent of any formal organizational turnout - but I have zero proof of my position - zero - because exactly how could I know witrhout actually interviewing these people.

But these people are ignorant - today on Hannity an alleged nurse claimed she has a duty to oppose the non-existent plan because under the plan premees will be denied healthcare.

personally I do not believe a nurse could be that ignorant so I must conclude the person was lying about being a nurse or it was a fake phone call created by Hannity himself

The American people are not stupid - they know hannity is insighting anger with lies - If teh Dems find anyone with the skills to fight back in an organizaed way with TV ads the Republicans will be the first to denounce Hannity and Beck - I will bet the farm on this

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

"how about stop telling what is in the non-existent plan and just copy and paste what is in the plan so we can read it ourselves."

Here's your non-existent plan for you:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3200:

Quit. Lying. Turd.

"Nope never going to happen."

Just did. As predictable as the sunrise, your prediction is wrong. Yawn.

Anonymous said...

There were no swastikas in your commentary or your link. Your local Gauleiter will need to be severely reprimanded by the secret mob leadership.

BobbyWC said...

It is amazing how predictable you are with lies - on key provisions there is no agreement between the Senate and House. Until there is one bill to be voted on and signed by the president there is no plan - it is all debate -

I will just assume you are unware it takes a vote in both the Senate and house before there is a plan

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

I will just assume you are unware it takes a vote in both the Senate and house before there is a plan

Plan? Must have missed that lecture in civics. I will just assume you are unaware of how a bill becomes law.

FYI: A majority of the town halls involve House members. The protesters are discussing the introduced house bill/resolution.

caps are an indication of yelling - can't get out of the hannity directed mode for one second.

Oh please, Bobby. The anon was attempting to differentiate their writing from yours, except you completely ignored their valid refutations and resorted to lame insults and distractions. I don't know how you live with yourself if this is all you got.

BobbyWC said...

I know exactly how a Bill becomes law - and the House Bill is going nowhere - on key provisions such as a government run plan the Senate has said no - there is no plan - just scare tactics

Last night on the news I saw Rick Scott (Conservatives for Patients Rights) (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/10/AR2009051002243.html) who is raising money to fight the reform and he said the approach being used by these people is not helping.

Last night Bill Maher had on two Republican House Members - it was a great show because they dicussed the real issues such as - the fraud in medicare - the fact insurance companies have an overhead of 30% and medicare only has 1% - both sides discussed the issue calmly and agreed on an amazing number of issues -

The Republicans also made clear what is happening is not helpful.

A mob is when irrational angry people scream and yell to get their way. The House Bill is going now where - the Senate has made this clear. This is nothing more than a handful of right-wingers using the issue to flex their power regardless of how it impacts the country.

When you have senior citizens yelling into the camera "I want the government to stay out of my medicare." You know these people are clueless.

You are mad about moveon.org raising money to counter Rick Scott's group because you know they will put forward people who's children have died because insurance companies refused to approve procedures.

You talk about taxes going up, which may happen, but ignore the fact that the taxes being paid by the people who have community hospitals will go down when the community hospitals can start to bill insurance companies for the care they give in stead of local land owners who already pay way too much in property taxes. Right now we do have a free public option wherein the haves pay for the have nots - Forcing people to have insurance will mean landowners will no longer have to support free county hospitals.

This is how I know the rightwingers are ignorant - people's property taxes could actually go down once people are forced to have insurance - the rightwingers know nothing but their fear and addiction to fear

Now how about meeting my challenge and posting where in this non existent Bill the government is taking away your rights. And I will show you a thousand places wherein the insurance companies are denying treatment - or dropping people because they need treatment - or doctors who know they are not part of a plan but order tests for the patient anyway without permission and then put the family into bankruptcy when they cannot afford to pay the higher deductable for out of plan care.

The sytem is broken. These people are yelling about something which does not yet exist. The House plan is dead and hannity knows it but does not care. He is getting high on watching the Congress having to respond to his mob rule. He thrives on ignorance.

Before this is all done and over the Republicans in the Congress will be the ones denouncing what is happening.

The complete BS in this is the insurance companies have paper pushers take away your rights every day - why are these people not talking about that - because they have been duped into believing the worse by mob leaders like Hannity.

You need to catch the repeat of the Bill Maher show - you might learn how rational people on opposite sides of the discussion can find an amazing amount of common ground and then pass something which helps people.

The yelling will solve nothing

Now how about posting an excerpt from the dead House Bill with a link so that my readers can decide for themselves instead of being yelled at into submission.

The American people are a lot smarter than you think.

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

BWC,

I am usually the first to kick you when you go over the edge sometimes, but I thought this was a pretty balanced post and realistic observations.

Anonymous said...

"Now how about posting an excerpt from the dead House Bill with a link so that my readers can decide for themselves instead of being yelled at into submission."

The bill link above not good enough for Satan? It has everything you need to go fuck yourself.

So Satan has spoken. The House bill is dead. Yesterday you were saying there was no bill, no plan, and no excerpt. Finally, someone provides you a link to the huge document, but you move the goal posts declaring the bill is going nowhere. Your proof is the senate doesn't like their bill. When did Harry Reid and the Senate begin dictating to the House what could be in their bill? Must have missed that one in the Constitution.

Is this really all you got? Satan, you can't be God since you declared someone else God, why is the House bill worthless? Is it because the CBO understated its effects on the budget? It's much worse than they originally thought. Is the dislike over provisions that basically reward hiring unskilled labor versus skilled labor as it does in H.R. 3200 421? Is it because our elected officials finally read any part of the bill and were confused?

Remind me, Satan, didn't Obama want the House bill? Wasn't the house bill his campaign plan or the part he wants us to believe before he takes the rug out from under us?

Satan, if there is no plan because the Obama hasn't signed anything, you words, then what is your side defending? What is Maher defending? What are you defending? You say we are attacking smoke and mirrors because we are stupid; then you and the liberals must be defending something, right? Or is your side beating up people for sport?

BobbyWC said...

How truly pathetic you are - yes Satan seeks to destroy.

Your obsession with a lack of knowledge is mind numbing.

I did not ask for a link to the House Bill which according to the Senate is dead. I asked for links to the provisions which you claim are bad - which the woman on Hannity claims will deny premees healthcare, which seniors are claiming deny them life sacving procedures because they are old.

You can't do it so you simply post a huge document and say it's in there. Every little game you play convinces people just how desperate you are to mislead or just how ignorant you are of the facts.

Bill Mahers show was about intellegent discussion of the issue, not the House Bill. My point was Bill Maher and the two Republican Congressmen were able to discuss the issues generally and agree on a lot of things.

the key was they actually had a discussion instead of a yelling match. No one objects to discussion the issues - the objection is the yelling and disrupting of the meetings.

If you are concerned with impact on the budget then go to these meeting and make it clear why you are concerned - make it clear you will never vote for anyone who supports reform which increases the debt on our children. You know what - when you approach it like that even Independents and many Democrats will cheer you on as being dead right.

It is not the objection to certain policies being debated which has people mad, it is the yelling and obstruction of the discussion which has people mad.

The Republicans I am certain will take the lead to stop it -

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

Satan, the mind numbing is caused by the drugs. I call on your bull shit. "Government pay system"? I don't even know what the fuck you are talking about. If you are talking about single-payer system, you only have to look at Obama's words. He and single-pay supporters have stated that the way to get to a single-pay system or government run health care is to make it where you don't feel you are getting pushed into this. It's as if they know Americans don't want government controlled health care, but they know better. You won't find it in any bill. But I think even supporters know it's obviously a trojan horse.

How many meetings in your life have you ever disrupted? Weren't you like a protester in your youth? Didn't that accomplish something or are you ready to admit it accomplished nothing? As for comedian Maher, is he still claiming to be a Libertarian or has that bull shit been called out too?

There are many reasons to be offended by the plan, which you maintain isn't a plan it's still debate, is how the poor will get poorer because of it. It benefits certain workers more than others in the tax scheme proposed. I will continue to focus on the house plan because that is the focus in the news and remind me again how the Senate said no? Was there a vote I missed? It forces younger Americans to have health care when they really don't need it or want it. It also doesn't solve the problem because admittedly the plan will not insure every American. It won't even come close.

But you're the one that won't let anyone debate the plan because you say there isn't a plan. It's impossible to argue for or against something if there isn't a supposed plan.

If the yelling matches are so pathetic, futile or anti-democratic, I'm not saying you are saying this to be clear, why is the left so concerned that they're sending union thugs and astroturf operatives to fight back, or "punch back," to use the President's words? If the mob is so hurtful to Republican's electoral image, why do the Democrats or the Left have to respond? It's obvious that the mob, which are asking questions without causing violence, is winning the public relations battle, which as the President through his election has shown is more important than the facts that you claim our side doesn't have or at the very least ignores facts.

In the end it doesn't make a difference. The powerful maintain their power. People leave a ghost life in the illusion of choice. Nothing ever changes. Nothing you do will make a difference. What's the point?

BobbyWC said...

and u still refuse to cut and past from the House proposal the provisions which you claim bring about all of these horrible things - why? because you cannot find them - you are a myth such as all of the garbage which is coming from the radical right - the line Hannity and company have given you is refuse to quote the provisions and just name call and yell.

This is why your side has no credibility and even Republicans are beginning to turn away from your types.

You have no interest in reform - you want to destroy Obama and the Dems even if it means destroying our country - as I have said there are legitimate issues to be debated, but you cannot debate and hash out a better plan with people who have no interest in fixing the problem -

yes it is true I am Satan because I demand that people provide the proof by referencing the exact language in House proposal - yes only Satan would want to give the people a chance to read it for themselves and form their own opinion.

Yes only Satan would have confidence in the people to read it for themselves instead of Hannity force feeding it to them because they are too stupid to read it for themselves.

Now how about copying and pasting wherein the House proposal all of these evil things exist.

Yea - we are all waiting -

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

Satan, I'm not interested in reform because like most Americans I am satisfied with my health insurance. I'm covered if something bad happens. Why should I have to point you to what some woman you claim said something. I am not that woman. I won't play your little game and do the research for you, Satan.

My side has no credibility? I give you something that demonstrates a tactic that Obama believes and wants to implement, and you say I have no credibility?

One other thing, I am satisfied because I don't need the government to urge me to create a living will or enter into an end of life program so I can follow you, Satan. I've already done it without government interference or a doctor telling me I should. Why would it be okay for the government to pay my doctor to urge me, when I'm old, to enter into a living will otherwise known as an end of life program in Section 1233. Mind you, Satan, I don't have to enroll right then and there but it would be helpful to the government. The doctor gets paid whether I do it or not.

Isn't it unreasonable to put a senior in a situation where they are in a room with a doctor they trust who is telling them they should do something right then and now? Wouldn't you, Satan, expect seniors to sign the document? It's just another paper to them they have to sign.

My question to you, Satan, is have you done it yourself or are you waiting for the government to pay your doctor to try to enter into a legal document? Doctors aren't lawyers, but the way the government would see them in Section 1233 they would be acting as paralegals or lawyers. Ideally, the delicate decisions about how to manage life's end would be made in a setting that is neutral in both appearance and fact. Yes, it's good to have a doctor's perspective. But Section 1233 goes beyond facilitating doctor input to preferring it. Indeed, the measure would have an interested party (the government) recruit doctors to sell the elderly on living wills, hospice care and their associated providers, professions and organizations. You don't have to be a right-wing wacko to question that approach.

But it won't matter. When we get old, each of us, some more than others obviously, will be all alone. Visiting doctor after doctor, after doctor counting the minutes until we die because they don't have the time or ability to tell us what is wrong with us. They won't cure us. They are incapable of doing anything right.

BobbyWC said...

First - you are a hack - you cannot even come up with your own words - which has been my point all along - you just repeat what you hear from someone you agree with - oh where did you get your hack words

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/07/AR2009080703043.html

You see I actually consider alternative views when argued with facts - The language was a bit too familiar

Again you prove your lack of knowledge in reality. This is exactly what has been happening at the VA for years. There is nothing new here.

Where were all of you pro troops conservatives defending us against this satanic practice being imposed upon us by the nasty government? Nowhere

I signed mine when a nurse provided me the form. I was told if I have concerns or questions she could not answer I could see the Chaplin or simply not sign it.

Again you prove you hate knowledge and education. What is so satanic in educating people on their options. A lot of people do not even know these documents exist.

Exactly how will a lawyer b eable ot better explain the medical side of these documents better than a doctor?

Would I oppose any law which mandates someone sign such a document - yes - but true to form the radical right is opposing knowledge and choice.

Now because unlike you I have no fear in people actually reading the law and deciding for themselves, instead of being spoon fed by a hack such as you who steals someone elses words, here we go.

http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/111/pdf/publications/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

go to page 424

Now the author of the WAPO oped piece fails to list one even one of the services to which doctors are todl to refer patients to for additional services which is a government agency with an interest in the documents - this is fear mongering.

Page 425-426 mandates refering patients to state legal services for help -

you did not even read the section - you just copied and past from the WAPO oped piece - lied by indicating they were your words when they were not.

Are you saying these state lelag services are in a satanic conspiracy with the government to kill off seniors.

And finally, if this is so so bad, why have the veterans not demand the practice stop at the VA - you go for an operation at the VA you will be asked to sign all of these documents during the preop interview.

You know dude - you proved my point - you could not even come up with your own words so you stole theme from WAPO - and then you did not even read the section you referenced to see the law mandates refering seniors to free legal services for assistance after the matter has been explained to them by a doctor.

BobbyWC

Anonymous said...

Satan, now don't be angry and get your panties all in a wad. I know I put a link and quotes. I purposefully did that because I am sick of you saying I don't have evidence or haven't watched informative comedy shows like Bill Marher to support my cause. Did you edit it, Satan? I know I put a link to the story.

I agree not putting a source is a hack thing to do. Satan, I'm sure you've never done that. I know you've never ever stolen something from someone and claimed as your own. I know you have never not given credit to someone else. Nope. That is not you, Satan. You are the most honest blogger in the whole wide world. Yupe. That's you.

Page 425-426 mandates refering patients to state legal services for help

Do you mean this?

(c) Inclusion of Information in Medicare & You Handbook-

(1) MEDICARE & YOU HANDBOOK-

(A) IN GENERAL- Not later than 1 year after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall update the online version of the Medicare & You Handbook to include the following:

(i) An explanation of advance care planning and advance directives, including--

(I) living wills;

(II) durable power of attorney;

(III) orders of life-sustaining treatment; and

(IV) health care proxies.

(ii) A description of Federal and State resources available to assist individuals and their families with advance care planning and advance directives, including--

(I) available State legal service organizations to assist individuals with advance care planning, including those organizations that receive funding pursuant to the Older Americans Act of 1965 (42 U.S.C. 93001 et seq.);

(II) website links or addresses for State-specific advance directive forms; and

(III) any additional information, as determined by the Secretary.


I challenge you to show me where in the above bill text a doctor or nurse practitioner is supposed to provide this to the senior patient. I believe it's just a government pamphlet.

But if you mean this:

`(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).

That still doesn't mean the patient couldn't sign up for the end of life program or living will while they are with the doctor without legal counsel. I still don't know how you could expect a doctor or nurse practitioner explain what power of attorney and legal documents to a senior.

Are you being forced to do things at the VA against your will? It is disheartening to read that. You know, if you don't like it, you do have the choice of going to a private plan you pay for without taxpayers paying for it. If you don't like it, it is all the more reason for Americans not to want government health care.

The people's government, at least until ObamaCare passes and is law, doesn't have to pay for your health care you know. You can opt out of it. I'm sure we taxpayers wouldn't mind a refund especially with all of your health issues. For a fifty something without combat injuries, you are expensive.

Anonymous said...

I don't know why you accept being called Satan. Accepting it is worse than not accepting Jesus Christ. You are a sinner until you have you accepted Christ as your Lord. He will heal your ailments.

I would like to know if you are or are not concerned with Obamacare's effect on wages.

BobbyWC said...

dude you got caught and now you claim a conspiracy to edit your words - it posted through exactly how you wrote it

There is nothing in the Bill which forces any senior to sign anything - it is about information.

Hvaing been on teh receiving end at the VA I can tell you the nurses do a great job in explaining the documents - they are medical - there is nothing legal to understand in pull the plug or don't pull the plug -

The VA nurses always tell you if you have any questions you can go visit with the Chaplain -

I am not complaining about the VA use of these documents - I am pointing out this has been going on for a long time and no vetera or vetaran's organization is claiming vetrans are being injured by the program.

But to use your words - any senior who does not like medicare is free to exercise their choice and buy private insurance - they will be back with medicare the first time they get a letter from the insurance company with DENIED - that DENIED treatment is what is killing people, not knowledge of the end of life documents

Bobby WC

BobbyWC said...

Post an article which discusses the issue and I will consider it - but, are you concerned with the impact not having insurance has on the disposible income of people who end-up with 100k of medical bills?

Are you concerned with the impact unpaid medical bills has on disposible income when insurance companies refuse to pay - my friend is fighting CIGNA because they left him with over 7k in medical bills.

If he does not pay the doctors and hospital they will not agree to perform the follow-up endoscopy to check on his ulcer.

How is that impacting his income - less money for his family and their needs because CIGNA is playing games.

Have you considered the impact on income for people who live in communities wherein they pay property taxes to support community hospitals, which is where the uninsured go for free healthcare?

Do you not agree if these people have some form of healthcare then it would cost the taxpayer less in property taxes to cover their free treatment.

Do you care about how hospitals increase the costs of care for everyone to cover those who will not pay?

Do you not care about how it impacts the income of those who pay more for insurance because insurance companies have to pay out more to cover the higher fees being charged for those who do not have insurance.

You do not care one bit about people's income - because if you did you would understand that under the current system we are being forced to pay for the uninsured through higher premiums and taxes.

But just keep on repeating what Hannity spoon feeds you.

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

There isn't nothing in the bill that forces you to sign anything. I never said there was, Satan. You are seeing things I am not saying. Uping your dosage might help you see more clearly and focused. I said that it is an uncomfortable situation to put a senior in. I agree with the Washtington Post. I agree with a lot of people that would find that troubling. Have you ever thought that maybe you're the oddball when it comes to this?

If a senior wishes to leave Medicare, they should but with a prorated refund from the government if they paid so much into it and haven't overused.

Now as for your situation, if you were to leave for private health coverage like the rest of us, I don't think you should be entitled to a refund since judging by the amount of drugs and doctors you visit you might owe the government money. Let's call it even. You never know you might help balance the VA budget if you stop using their money and benefits. It's a win-win situation.

Hey anon don't post that article. Satan'll probably change it and say you stole from it to mislead his readers. He'll call you a hack. Oh and you probably think that last Satan comment was from me since you keep talking about Hannity. It wasn't. I don't know how you listen to Hannity when he isn't on the radio locally. Satan, you must be the Hannity fanatic if you find a way to listen to him.

Have you considered the impact on income for people who live in communities wherein they pay property taxes to support community hospitals, which is where the uninsured go for free healthcare?

That's a good question, but have you stopped to consider how many people will be removed from the uninsured lists? From what I recall the CBO stated only about 10million will actually be removed from the list at a cost of trillions of dollars. Is it really worth it?

To pay for this one would have to expect a federal tax increase which would probably be at a higher proportional rate to that of property taxes going down in your hypothetical. It's a good argument I'll give you that but in the end seniors and disabled already get a freeze on their property taxes they don't on their federal taxes. I'd rather keep my federal taxes low.

You know one way to keep from paying for the uninsured through higher premiums is not to pay for illegal aliens. That might solve a portion of the problem than increasing our federal debt and government intervention into how we live our lives with or without health care coverage.

BobbyWC said...

Again you prove your lack of interest in knowledge is obvious - most of my readers know that Hannity is on locally on 710 after the Col.

Further, you are a liar - you are a hack - I publihsed your comment exactly as you posted it - you hacked WAPO as your own

I never said you said they have to sign anything - I said they do not have to sign anything - section 1233 is about providing information and choice to seniors - that's it.

Now as to the lawyers - some 15 years ago I stopped doing these documents for clients because I got tired of the children showing up with the parents demanding their parents sign the documents.

I heard children try and guilt their parents into signing the documents so that the money would not be wasted on needless healthcare instead of sending the grandchildren to college.

I got tired of children trying to dictate to seniors what should and should not be in their wills.

If you think me refusing to be party to these abuses you are wrong - the children had no problem finding lawyers willing to take the money in exchange for bullying seniors into signing documents they did not want to sign or did not understand.

Lawyers will always take the money - the doctors do not get paid a penny more by having the senior sign the documents - the lawyers only get paid by abusive family members when they force fragile seniors into signing these documents.

The one thing a lawyers office is not - neutral - the more documents he prepares the more money he makes.

Bobby WC

BobbyWC said...

Again you prove your lack of interest in knowledge is obvious - most of my readers know that Hannity is on locally on 710 after the Col.

Further, you are a liar - you are a hack - I publihsed your comment exactly as you posted it - you hacked WAPO as your own

I never said you said they have to sign anything - I said they do not have to sign anything - section 1233 is about providing information and choice to seniors - that's it.

Now as to the lawyers - some 15 years ago I stopped doing these documents for clients because I got tired of the children showing up with the parents demanding their parents sign the documents.

I heard children try and guilt their parents into signing the documents so that the money would not be wasted on needless healthcare instead of sending the grandchildren to college.

I got tired of children trying to dictate to seniors what should and should not be in their wills.

If you think me refusing to be party to these abuses you are wrong - the children had no problem finding lawyers willing to take the money in exchange for bullying seniors into signing documents they did not want to sign or did not understand.

Lawyers will always take the money - the doctors do not get paid a penny more by having the senior sign the documents - the lawyers only get paid by abusive family members when they force fragile seniors into signing these documents.

The one thing a lawyers office is not - neutral - the more documents he prepares the more money he makes.

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

In Obama's America, the government protests you!

BobbyWC said...

Asis always the case with Pelosi she makes everything worse - I hope sooner than later the Dems vote to remove her.

Bobby WC

Anonymous said...

Again you prove your lack of interest in knowledge is obvious - most of my readers know that Hannity is on locally on 710 after the Col.

No. You proved you are a Hannity fanatic because you knew that. Who other than a Hannity fan would know that? The Col.? Oh you mean Ray? The guy that insists on being called Col. after he retired? The gimick guy? Are you a KURV loyal listner too? How many Killer Bees games have you gone to because you won the prize, Satan?

You see, Satan, how easy it is to prove something that isn't true. I know you aren't a Hannity fanatic, but I'm not so sure about the loyal listner. Why would you be a Hannity fanatic? By me laying a trap for you to call me a uninformed liar once again because I know you can't resist and you know he is recorded not live, you allowed me the opportunity to call you and prove once and for all you are a Hannity fanatic. You probably have a Hannity wig on right now.

To be fair, I don't even listen to Hannity. He bores me. I don't like taped programs, and I have a life and family. Do you have a family or is that why you watch teen movies in a dark movie theater? But hey man to each his own, Mr. Hannity fanatic. How did you manage all that time when Hannity wasn't on at all? Did you want to move away?

Since you believe the protests only hurt Republicans, I must say Keep it up Pelosi!

Anyway, this has been fun. You have reviven my spirits in spite of everything stacked by people like you against her. I'll be back in a few days or some other time. I do hope the drugs work and give you focus for your sake. I would hate for you to go on living your life in pain. Maybe, Satan, you should follow the advice of the God-fearing anon and go with God.

BobbyWC said...

again you get caught not knowing the facts and then you lie about it.

here is a scoop for you - knowledge is a good thing - open minded people consider all points of view and seek out diverse opinions - open minded people are secure in their in themselves because they do not fear change or contrary views.

here is a news flash - Hannity is on the internet - all radio shows are are in the internet to be heard live regardless of where you live.

I listen to KONO 101.1 from SA - the internet is this wonderful invention - you might learn something about it before you continue to make incredibly stupid and ignorant comments.

here is another news flash- on the internet I can listen live to news programs out of Russia and Nicaragua - knowledge is everything - something you have proven over and over again you oppose.

So back to finishing a lawsuit - and listening to KONO - maybe later I will catch news out of moscow - I will also listen to some commentary out of Mexico as to how they are receiving Obama.

And yes I do have a life - but based on how much time you have devoted to hanging yourself with endless posts to the BV - I must ask - do you have a job - because if you do - your boss needs to fire your ass for spending so much time on the internet.

I am on the internet because I do a lot of advocacy work for poor families - I can get a lot done with e-mails and online applications - with focus it amazes me how much I can get done in 3-4 hours a day.

Bobby WC